Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Welcome to the Hand in Hand Parent Club podcast. I'm Emily Murray, a hand in hand instructor and a mom of two.
Speaker 1 00:00:06 I'm Kathy Gordon, a single adoptive mom of a now young adult son, a hand in hand instructor, and we are both moderators of hand-in-hand, awesome membership program, the parent club. Every
Speaker 0 00:00:17 Week we'll be answering a parenting question. You'll hear about hand in hand, parenting's, powerful respectful parenting tools. We'll share how they help you work with your child's feelings, especially when their behavior gets harder, confusing.
Speaker 1 00:00:29 You can feel good about using these tools. They've brought warmth and connection to our own families and to many thousands of families around the world who are using the hand in hand approach.
Speaker 0 00:00:39 That's why hand in hand and the Parent club exist. We're here to support you and your family so you have more good, sweet, fun times together.
Speaker 2 00:00:49 Hello parents. Welcome, welcome back. We have a question from one of our listeners. We've so enjoyed doing these questions, uh, for the last several episodes. Um, being able to hear what you're thinking about and um, give you some ideas and a hand in hand take on the things that you're seeing. So our question this week was really fun for us to think about. Um, one of our listeners wrote in and asked, how much do you factor in, um, the birth order of your children into how you use the hand in hand tools? Like what does it mean to parent an oldest or a middle or a youngest? So we brought a special guest on today to talk about it. Um, summer Sheldon is a certified hand in hand instructor and a mom of three. Um, she's also a licensed professional counselor in Oregon in the, um, upper, upper left corner of the us and works with children and families and is especially interested in working with Neurodiverse individuals. Um, summer has joined us, joined us in the parent club, um, many, many times as we help families with more than one or two children adapt the tools to meet their unique needs. So thank you so much Summer for being here with us. Um, so what do you think, what do you think about this idea of birth order and how it might or might not affect the way we use the hand in hand tools with our children?
Speaker 3 00:02:15 Mm-hmm. Thank you, Emily. First, I'd wanna like just put a little disclaimer out there that obviously this is just, um, our kind of ideas and spit ball about this. Mm-hmm. We hand in hand doesn't have like an official statement on that, and we, I think hand in hand is always steered away from sort of the pap psychology kind of things as we seek to think well about our kiddos, um, you know, just in the context of how do we listen to them well. Um, but I, I do think obviously that through, you know, through history, through just the kind of trends that we see that there, our kids do show up in these sort of general categories of oldest, middle and youngest. And I feel, um, you know, it's been really fun to kind of spitball and think this week about how we approach, um, sort of the structures of our families through the hand in hand lens.
Speaker 3 00:03:11 And I, I think that that's kind of the main piece, um, that we've come, you know, that is really clear and said, I think it's really helpful when we're thinking about our children, um, and individuals, ourselves, individuals, um, in general is to think about not only, um, about who they are and who their personalities are and who their, what their tendencies are like, but then also, um, what are the structures that surround them or what are the structures that surround us? What are, what kind of parent am I able to be in this structure versus this structure? Um, I'm a lot, um, more relaxed mom when I've got my house clean and, you know, I've got money in my bank account and I totally have all the resources I need. I am fun for days, you know, <laugh>. And if I'm in a different context and, you know, my kid spills milk and that's the last milk I could buy for the week, I'm a way different mom.
Speaker 3 00:04:07 And my, my urgency and my responses to those things are, are different. And so I I, that's just kind of one example of it helps me when I think about our kids to sort of maybe step outside of our families and to think about how that might apply in different contexts as well. Um, so far as an example, I think it's kind of helpful to think of our families kind of, um, maybe as a, like an an office environment or a work environment and think of myself, um, and my personality and who I am and how, um, depending on my roles or if you were to put me in different places within that hierarchy or within that power structure, how my personality might show up or how I might flourish or not flourish or find success or not, or struggle in within the, the, the organization and then within that structure.
Speaker 3 00:04:59 Um, and so I think it's really helpful for us to, well, our children. Um, and I think that's the main thing to really see who they are and then see who they are also in their context. Um, so for instance, like with the office situation, I, if you put me in at the very lowest beginning newbie role where I'm just making copies and getting people coffee, um, maybe some of my leadership qualities would never be seen or developed. Um, if you stuck me in, in the middle, um, you know, I, I might really flourish where sometimes I can be in a, in a role of, you know, kind of giving some directions and then also being a good follower. If you put me in as the C E O, I can tell you right now, I will struggle <laugh> because I have the executive functioning skills of like a carrot.
Speaker 3 00:05:50 I can't do anything. So, um, I, I think it's really interesting to think of ourselves, but I also loved pe. You know, I, I have great ideas and so there's all kinds of different things that we can think about how this, that's just for me for an instance. So then when I shift and I, and I think about my children and I think about, um, I have three kiddos and I've got an two oldest boys that are only 18 months apart. And then I have a daughter who's about three and a half years younger. And so, um, that in and of itself is just a really self-contained, you know, um, structure about how those two at the top kind of interact and, and then how the youngest kind of gets to be very much the youngest and is of a different gender and, um, you know, has a very different experience, uh, in the, in the family and in how she, you know, the kind of power she has and kind of expectations.
Speaker 3 00:06:45 So as a parent, um, I just really, it's been really helpful for me to think about them since they were little, um, and who they are. So my oldest tends to be a really sensitive, um, he's very aware of his environment. He's a very connected person, so it's really easy for him to step into the role of per of being a parent and being parentified. And I actually have to work really hard against that because it's really convenient to have a 14 year old semi parent when I'm trying to get the kids out the door <laugh>. Like, it's really convenient for me to have, you know, that little echo voice where I say, okay, guys, time to get in the car. And then he comes on with, okay, guys, time to get in the car <laugh>. You know? Um, and, and sometimes that's helpful and sometimes it is helpful that I have this really responsible person next to me who's helping me parent the other two.
Speaker 3 00:07:42 But it's also, it's if I stop and I step back and I think about it, it's not fair for him. Like, he is a kiddo. He gets to be a kiddo. And so I have to work really hard to allow him to have that, that child experience the same one that my other children got. So, you know, that, you know, my daughter is nine and at nine he was already in that role. He was already parenting himself. Um, and that is something that I've actually worked really hard on, but, um, and he'll even, he's even admitted like he'll say, well, you know, I'd rather yell at them than you yell at them. Not that we want to yell at our children <laugh>, but not that that happens. But when happens, we all, you know, get frustrated and, and he can feel, you know, my tension rising mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 00:08:28 And he'll step into that role and, and I have to say, whoa, this is for me to handle my feelings. Mm-hmm. This is not for you to handle my feelings. And I'll say, you know, for instance, even just yesterday morning, I'll say, Hey, Bubba, it's okay. I'll get them, you know, I'll, I'll get them in the car, you know, kind of. I'm like, why don't you just go wait in the car? I don't tell, you know, and it's sometimes he'll say things like, he'll, he'll kind of step into that kind of boss mode, and I have to not in a corrective kind of like you're being bossy way, but just in a Thanks buddy. I got it. Um,
Speaker 2 00:09:02 I think I've had really similar, um, experiences with my oldest and my youngest. I have two, and there's an eight year age gap, um, between the two of them. And as you were telling that story, I'm nodding in, I'm nodding along because, um, there's so many times when I am, I have a plan of how I'm setting a limit or how I'm, um, kind of, uh, working with my younger on something that, that they're struggling with. They're off track for some reason. And my oldest, um, would step in and like start being like angry and nitpicky at my younger. And I, I have had to say, it's okay, I've got this. And I think what she's seeing is my younger sibling is riling my, my mom up. And this is getting, this is getting dicey. We don't want mom to get, you know, riled up or angry, so I've gotta step in here and do something.
Speaker 2 00:09:57 And so figuring out how to transmit to my oldest, it's okay, I've got this, I'm confident I'm feeling good about how I'm, I'm doing this. Yeah, it's okay. You don't, you don't have to step in. Yeah. Um, and these two in particular have such wildly different personalities. So again, to that, to that point that you were making about, these are unique individuals and they're also unique individuals within the context of a family. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, and some of those things have do ring true in, in my family with oldest and youngest. Um, and, you know, not everything. Um, I joke sometimes that my oldest is like a siese cat and my younger is like a Labrador retriever. And those two very different personalities deserve a need. Very different kinds of responses from me as a parent. They don't have the same needs, they don't have the same struggles. They don't have, um, uh, they need different things from me as a parent. So I have to kind of, um, switch in my brain, like, which, which person am I talking to? Which, um, personality, which, which style do I need to move into? Um, for each of them? Um, do you find yourself doing the, that same thing, like tailoring the tools to kind of your, your older and your middle and your youngest in those different ways?
Speaker 3 00:11:22 Absolutely. Um, yeah. And I love what you said about how the different personalities come through. And I, I think I think about that, you know, as you were talking about, I, I think our oldest have a tendency to, like, if I think about like lined up like on the family division, like we're gonna put the parents on one side and the kids on one side, that those oldest kids have a tendency to wanna like cross over into the parent side. Yes. And like they do face the kids. And I think, and, and then I think that actually the youngest, because of the structure have a tendency to stay on the kid side and wanna stay on the kid side. Like, you can't pull 'em over to save your life. Like, they're not, they're like, no, I'm a firmly rooted in my kidness. Like I, this is my identity and I like it, and nobody really calls them over.
Speaker 3 00:12:09 And so, um, I think that in, if we wanna think about, you know, as parents is, is trying to help the, this kiddo, you know, maybe the oldest to step over into the kids part and have the, the youngest, you know, kind of step forward into maybe some more of the adulting. Um, and, and, and some of that is practice, and some of that's familiarity and some of that is personality, but there are some kiddos that are more take charge and responsible and they have great executive functioning skills and they can totally see how easy it is to do the things. And so they just do the things. And then other kids that might struggle with getting motivated or knowing how or all those kind of stuff. So I do think as far as the tools go, I I, I, I try to use them to encourage that. So it might be more limit setting maybe for the kiddo for the youngest, right. The one where normally
Speaker 2 00:12:59 Yeah, those, those expectation limits of actually, I really do think you can do this. Yeah. I'm gonna be right here with you while you try it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:13:05 Yeah. And I, I, you know, it might be that it's something that feels really physically strong or difficult for them, or, you know, they're kind of used to sort of, you know, I asked the oldest to take the garbage out because he's the strongest, he's the oldest. He'll get up off the couch and do it quickly, <laugh>. And instead I have to consciously be like, Nope, totally capable. Nine year old can totally take the garbage out <laugh>. And she'll be like, but that's not my job. You know, that's his job. And I'll be like, actually, you have a fully functioning body <laugh>, and I'm gonna hold a limit here. And when he was nine, he could take it out. And just because you're the youngest mm-hmm. I have to switch over and think and think of her, you know, as, as doing some of that and do some limit setting with her.
Speaker 3 00:13:46 Whereas actually for my oldest, um, because he has a tendency to sort of align himself with the adults, he doesn't oftentimes put himself in the, in the needing in the kid part. He doesn't ask for the nurturance that, um, my, my youngest. So when I'm dishing out special time, he doesn't ask for it in the same way. He'll, if he does ask for it, he always waits till they're in bed. And, um, it's always, you know, after nine o'clock and they're finally asleep and he'll kind of be like, Hey mom, could I have some special time? And if I say he's my kiddo too, that if I say, oh, I don't have time tonight. He's like, that's ok. Where if my other kids, I say, oh, I don't have time right now. They're like, what? <laugh>, you know, they're like, gimme my special time. Um, and he's, he's not that kind, you know, that's not his role.
Speaker 3 00:14:35 He doesn't see himself kind of in, in that same light. And so I have to work really hard one, I almost always say yes if I can at all whenever he requests, I want him to be able to feel like he can, and I offer special time to him more often and in ways, um, that might, you know, he might not think of. Um, and I do, I try to make space for him and for his dis you know, his needs as well in a way that he, I think forgets too. Mm-hmm. Um, and I oftentimes, you know, here's the other thing is that I think for him in particular, because he sees himself, um, as more of an adult, he doesn't do as much off-track behavior. And it's really easy as a parent to want to like, oh, that's so nice. I have this one kid who doesn't have, you know, as much off track behavior, but I actually work really hard and I've done a lot of listening timer around this.
Speaker 3 00:15:28 Um, and then I actually kind of encourage his off-track behavior. Mm-hmm. So I get kinda soft with him about it actually. So if he's being kind of grumpy, I'll say, oh, grumpy version is my favorite. Mm-hmm. Like, I love grumpy version come here. And instead of when he's like, gets a little, you know, or eye roll or grumpy, I try to kind of actually scoop that up and pull a little bit of him because that he doesn't do it very often. And, and I, it helps him to remember that he's a kiddo and that all parts of him are lovable. Not just the good obedient, perfectionist, older type, but even his other, his like grumpy kid self, his like kind of poopy attitude teenage boy self. That, that part, I love that part too. And
Speaker 2 00:16:14 I do worry sometimes, um, with my older, I'm like, I, I fear sometimes that we planted seeds of don't be a burden and that the, those seeds really, really took root. So now we have to very actively make sure that the, the message of you're not a burden. Your big feelings are not a burden. Your needs are not a burden. Um, we have to really proactively try to reach out for that in the same way that we have to help my, my younger like, put your dishes in dishwasher when
Speaker 4 00:16:49 You're talking, there's a <laugh>. I believe in you. I believe in you, you can do it. So we like to
Speaker 2 00:16:59 Leave parents, um, and listeners with um, one small thing that they can try after k kind of thinking this through with us. Yeah. Um, seeing these different scenarios, what's one small thing that, that you think parents might be able to do to help them think through this lens of unique child, but interesting context?
Speaker 3 00:17:21 Yeah. Um, I, you know, I really love the idea of just flipping the script on, on those kiddos, you know, on, we didn't even touch on middles. Um, there are <laugh> lot
Speaker 4 00:17:32 Middles. I'm a middle of course we didn't touch a middle <laugh>. So one,
Speaker 3 00:17:37 Get lots of listening time about those middles because they're gonna <laugh>,
Speaker 4 00:17:41 But I think they get forgotten. They do.
Speaker 3 00:17:44 We should do a whole episode just on middles. Um, but I do think that they, that, you know, flipping those, that script, you know, particularly in, in the roles in which we, we think of our kiddos being aware of them and, and doing some of that really. So whether that's, um, going after your oldest with some extra special time mm-hmm. Whether that's setting a little bit more listening or stay limiting and limit setting with your younger or vice
Speaker 2 00:18:11 Or just noticing you have a middle child <laugh> Yes.
Speaker 3 00:18:13 Just notice that they're in there <laugh>. Cause we attention
Speaker 2 00:18:20 Summer, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today and sharing this, this fun topic of, um, birth order and tailoring the tools to our, each unique kiddo that we have. Um, so, uh, we'll see everyone on the next episode where we have another special guest, um, hand in hand founder Patty Whittler is gonna be with us. So we'll see you all then. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:18:47 Thank you. Thanks Emily. Bye. Thank
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